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The Fall from Grace

Darren: I was telling Walter that your message is mainly about putting an end to suffering—that's what you got, right? You put an end to your own suffering.

Stephen: There are two points that have sort of come out of this. Because the question arises, why do I have these meetings? There are two reasons: one is to share the fact that it's possible to be free of psychological suffering, and the second is that it's possible to be free of spiritual seeking. And I say that because that was my experience. I was experiencing psychological suffering, and I was seeking spiritually to overcome the suffering. That was the story of my life.

Darren: Do you make a distinction between psychological suffering and emotional suffering?

Stephen: Well, they get resolved together. I can talk about the insight or recognition that happens and it's nothing new. It seems to me that all of the ancient traditions are pointing to this—seeing what you are in essence, noticing what you are in essence. It's not an attainment. It's not something new. At the root of psychological suffering is a misconception—that is believing you are something that you are not.

There's one coin of seeing what you are. But there are two sides of that coin. One is seeing what you are in your own direct experience, which is very simple. It's not a new state, it's not an attainment. And the other side of the coin is seeing what you are not. The misconception of believing and feeling that you are something that you are not, is at the root of psychological suffering. So when that's seen clearly, the one coin of what I am, who am I?— then psychological suffering and spiritual seeking fall away.

Walter: Could you say that psychological suffering is a result of your identifying with your body/mind?

Stephen: Yes. If you look in your own direct experience, and I speak from my own experience and I think we're all essentially the same. The human experience is essentially the same for all of us. At the root of psychological suffering is believing, thinking, feeling, and sensing that you are the person, the body/mind organism.

Walter: Yeah, the ego.

Stephen: The ego, the me, the sense of being separate.

Walter: Exactly.

Stephen: We can look in our own experience and see that anytime and every time that we're experiencing psychological suffering, at the root of the suffering is 'me'! When there's no 'me' there's no psychological suffering. So that's one of the first points we notice about psychological suffering is that at the root of it is this me, this ego, this I, this sense of being separate, this sense of being a separate person—Walter, Darren or Stephen, we give it a label and a name.

Walter: Ramesh uses the words 'dis-identifying with the ego-self.'

Stephen: We could say that when it's seen clearly, this ego-self—and we can broaden the definition of it—it's an image of a body/mind, it's a story, it's a belief in the existence of a separate, controlling entity, this me, this ego, who exists as a separate entity from the rest of the universe, and is able to exercise control over the universe. That's the sense of being separate, this sense of ego, the sense of me. Not only am I a separate body/mind organism, but I'm a separate, controlling entity. Somehow I was able to separate myself from the rest of the universe, and now I'm able to exercise control over the universe.

If we look in our own direct experience, we'll see that the belief in the ego, the me, the existence of a separate, controlling entity is at the root of all psychological suffering. If we look, what's happening when psychological suffering is happening? We notice there's a story playing in the head, and the story revolves around me. I'm not good enough, I need to improve my life, I need to be a better person, I need to be more spiritual, I need to be more loving and kind, I need to be a better parent, a better brother, a better father—it all revolves around me.

Darren: So if that is the mistake, what is the correct way of viewing it?

Stephen: If we notice that every time that psychological suffering is happening, there's a story playing, a series of images and a story playing. And the story revolves around me—Stephen, Walter, Darren, in our own experience. So the suggestion is, as many have suggested, we look into and find out who am I? Ramana suggested that and many others.

Walter: One way of putting it is, I am not Walter, I am that which is aware of Walter and what's happening.

Stephen: Seeing that in your own direct experience, yes. But not just conceptually. Seeing that, recognizing that. So we sit here and we say, okay, my interest is in being free of psychological suffering and spiritual seeking. I've read Nisargadatta, Ramana, the New Testament, the Old Testament, I've read all the ancient scriptures. And they all say that at the root of suffering is the belief that you are separate from God, separate from Consciousness, separate from Intelligence-Energy, whatever word you're comfortable with.

If we look in our own direct experience and we ask who am I? What is this me that I think I am? And we notice that at the root of psychological suffering is this 'me' character, and the assumption is that this me exists as a separate entity who can exercise it's own control. So we sit here and we look, and ask, is that true? Is there any separate, controlling entity? Is there any separate ego, any separate Walter that exists as a separate entity, a separate controlling entity?

Darren: We are separate body/minds, right?

Stephen: Nothing is separate. Absolutely nothing is separate. If you remove one atom of hydrogen from the water molecules in your body it will fall apart.

Darren: But there's a physical body over there, a body over here, and over there. There is a distinct separation.

Stephen: There is no separation until the I-thought arises. When there's no thinking, there's no separation. There is no separation, it's only conceptual. We can talk about that. But looking in your own direct experience you see that there's no suffering unless there's a belief in this ego, this me. So, the suggestion is to look and see if that's true. Is there any separate ego, any separate Walter, any separate Darren, any separate me who can exercise control?

And we notice that this me, this Stephen that I thought I was, is nothing more than an image, it's a concept, a story. It's a belief in the existence of Stephen as a separate entity. So we're sitting here and we notice, and we ask ourselves, what is this me that I think I am? Can I find anything that I can point to and say, this is me? Is there any separate, controlling entity here at all? And it's noticed, it's seen in your own experience that this me, this ego that I thought I was, is nothing but an image, it's a series of stories, thoughts, memories, beliefs—it's all conceptual. It's seen that that's all it is, it has no separate existence.

Walter: But Darren's point is that there are three individuals sitting here, you, me, and Darren.

Stephen: We could say three points of consciousness. We can talk about that. Nothing is separate. Nothing is separate in the universe.

Walter: No, but there are three individuals sitting here.

Stephen: Three points of consciousness.

Walter: Ramesh uses the words, we are dreamed characters in a dreamed world.

Stephen: You are the dreamer, the dreamed, and the dreaming. There's no separation.

Walter: Right.

Stephen: If we see in our own direct experience that this Darren, this Stephen or Walter that we think we are—we want to look into this because we notice that every time we're suffering, there's this character in a story that's playing in the head. It's imagination. When there's no imagination, when there's no imaginary Walter, when there's no story playing there's no suffering!

Darren: Let me ask you this, If I find my wife cheating on me, how would I not suffer by recognizing that I don't exist as an ego?

Stephen: We can talk about specific hypothetical situations, but let's stay with the basics of what I am and what I am not, and that will answer all of the specific situations that arise.

Darren: Okay, I see what you're saying.

Stephen: Because we could come up with an infinite number of specific hypothetical situations to address.

Darren: And I'm good at that.

Stephen: And they are all resolved by this insight.

Darren: So if I was to see that I am not a controlling entity, then what I say or do, or what happens through me is not a result of my own will.

Stephen: There is no one there doing anything. Everything is happening.

Darren: How does one see that?

Stephen: By looking to your own experience. We'll continue looking at the coin of what I am. One side is what I am, and the other side is what I am not. So we want to resolve that question from the positive perspective of what I am, and from the negative perspective of what I am not. We want to look at both sides.

So we've seen that at the root of psychological suffering is the belief in the existence of a separate entity. So we want to look into that in our own experience. Is there any separate entity here? Is there any separate, controlling entity? Is there any separate will here? Was this body/mind organism somehow able to separate itself from the rest of creation, and then exercise control over the rest of the universe? Is there any way this body/mind organism could separate itself from whatever created the universe, and then exercise it's own separate will—is that possible?

Darren: Well, you know it seems that, if one looks in one's own experience, it seems that we do have free will.

Stephen: And that is at the root of psychological suffering—that belief and that sense.

Darren: I chose to come here this evening, and I came here. It seems like it was my will, my decision, right?

Stephen: So, if we look into this 'me' that says 'my' will, what do we find?

Walter: Now, stop right there. Did he choose to come here?

Stephen: Let's look into that. Because we could answer it conceptually, but it doesn't help. It's not a belief.

Walter: Never mind all that. Just answer, did he choose to come here?

Stephen: It depends on what you mean by 'he'. There is no separate Darren who chose to come here.

Walter: Did Darren choose to come here tonight?

Stephen: No.

Walter: Alright. That's alright. I'll buy that.

Darren: You buy that, Walter?

Walter: Yes. I asked Francis Lucille that same question the first time I met him. I said, Francis, I'm here tonight. Did I choose to come here? He said, no. You couldn't have been anywhere else. Everything in the universe conspired for you to be here.

Stephen: Exactly.

Darren: Which would mean that the universe conspired to have everything happening everywhere.

Stephen: We could say that whatever is moving the universe, we can call it the Mysterious Source of all existence, we can call it God, Universal Intelligence, Consciousness, Awareness, whatever word we want to call it. It's a mystery and we can all agree it's an absolute mystery, whatever's moving the universe.

So we can say that the Mysterious Source of all existence moves everything. There's no possible way that any entity could separate itself. There is no entity in the universe that could separate itself from the Mysterious Source of all existence and then exercise control—it's just not possible. You can look in your own direct experience and see that it's true. In your own daily experience—thoughts happen, feelings happen, sensations happen, actions happen. The sun shines, the earth turns, the universe expands—there's no separate entity doing any of that. In your own direct experience, whatever thought, feeling or sensation is happening, it's the Mysterious Source creating that thought, that feeling, that sensation—there's no separate entity doing any of it.

Darren: Walter, do you feel that way in your own life? That everything you have done was not a result of your own free will?

Walter: Yes, Ramesh makes that point. He says if you really look back into your life you'll find that you didn't control the decisions. I think it's true. It's an intellectual exercise, but I think it's true.

Stephen: There is no separate entity who could possibly exercise it's own will. It's not possible that Darren could separate himself—the body/mind is born into the world and is somehow able to separate itself from the rest of creation and then exercise it's own separate will. Whatever is expressing itself through this body/mind organism called Darren is the same Mysterious Essence that's expressing itself through the cat, through Walter, through Stephen, through every tree, flower, and blade of grass. The Mysterious Source is expressing itself, Darren is not expressing himself. There's no separate Darren.

Darren: So would you say that the moment one could see that to be the truth that would be enlightenment?

Stephen: Seeing that you are not this separate ego, this me is one side of the coin. So then we say, well, what am I? My entire life I thought that I was this Stephen character.

Walter: But answer his question. I think the answer is yes.

Stephen: I am answering his question. Yes, but there are two sides to this coin. It's one coin, what I am, but it's helpful to see both sides of the coin—what I am and what I am not. So, we see what I am not—I am not a separate entity. But my whole life I felt that I was a separate ego. So what am I? Now we look and see what is it abut me that can't be denied? What is it about me that's always true? What is it about me that has never changed? And what we notice is that from the time we were a little child and up to now, there's this awareness—right now! You can always notice it.

There's seeing happening, there's hearing happening, the senses are active. There's an awareness of the seeing, and the hearing. There's an awareness of all that. We can look back and consider our whole life, there's always been this awareness, this consciousness that I am. Everything comes and goes, we could say, through this awareness—there's no through, or in or out, but just to put it into words. Our entire life everything has gone through this awareness, so to speak. Our life story is always changing. The body is always changing. The mind, thoughts are always changing; feelings are always changing; sensations are always changing. So our body and mind, and our experiences are always changing.

So what is it about me that has never changed? What's always the same? And we notice it's this consciousness that I am. I am this consciousness. It's this witnessing presence. It's watching. It's watching the body as it grows older. Sometimes the body is healthy and sometimes it's sick. It watches the thoughts. Sometimes there are pleasant thoughts, and sometimes there are unpleasant thoughts. It watches the feelings—they're the same, always changing.

Walter: Back to Darren's question, Ramesh would constantly say, everything that happened is the impersonal functioning of totality.

Stephen: Yes, there are a lot of different ways to say 'impersonal functioning of totality.' It's the same as God, or Universal Intelligence. There are a lot of different words and phrases we can use to point to the same Mystery.

Darren: So, Walter, in your case if you can see that it's just the impersonal functioning of totality and that you had no say in the matter of what you did, nor did anybody else, you cannot feel guilt.

Walter: That's true.

Darren: And you cannot hate somebody else.

Walter: No.

Darren: Because it was not them.

Walter: You cannot condemn, cannot criticize. I agree. If you hold that view.

Darren: Can you do that Walter?

Walter: Oh, no. That's why I hang around people like this.

Darren: Can you do that, Stephen?

Stephen: I'm doing nothing. Everything is happening. So whatever is happening is happening. This is the peace that's at peace with war. This is the love that loves hate. This is unconditional and absolute. This witnesses the peaceful experiences and the experiences of war. It's not relative. It's not good or bad. It's not good or evil. It's not peaceful or war-like. It's the witnessing presence. It's absolute. It's unconditional. This consciousness, this awareness that I am.

So whatever is happening is happening. There is no one who's ever done anything. So, it's not as though this insight happens and you'll start to do nice things. It's not a personal doing. Whatever is happening is happening.

Darren: So, Hitler doesn't deserve anymore condemnation than Mother Theresa deserves praise.

Stephen: Not personally, however, if Hitler or Charles Manson comes into the room, it's not safe for us to be here with them. So we'll want to separate them from us. But it's not them personally doing anything. Whatever is expressing itself, the Mysterious Source is expressing itself as Hitler and Mother Theresa. There's no personal blame. If this cat starts biting us, we'll move the cat into the other room, but we don't blame the cat personally.

Darren: Right.

Stephen: So everything is happening.

Darren: Does that point of view take away our loving another. For example, if the cat does nice things we cannot even love it because it's not the cat doing anything. Something else is doing it through it.

Stephen: It's impersonal. Love is impersonal. It's not I love you, but there is love. In personal relationships there can be special relationships, but there's not a special love. There can be a special attraction based on biological and psychological compatibility. It's not a personal doing, it just happens.

Darren: This is the first time I've ever heard someone say that the compatibility is personal, but the love is impersonal.

Stephen: You can see it in your own experience that you are more compatible with some people than with others. That happens, it's not something that you can do. Either an attraction happens or it doesn't. You don't create the spark or the attraction to another person, either it happens or it doesn't. Even personal relationships are not a personal doing. The ego is not a creation of the ego. It's an expression of the Mysterious Source. Even the ego is a creation of the Mysterious Source. The Mysterious Source created the appearance of the ego and its falling away. The Mysterious Source is moving everything, and is not separate from anything.

Darren: The ego falls away?

Stephen: It's seen clearly as not being who I am.

Darren: Okay, when you see it clearly.

Stephen: It's seen as an appearance, this Stephen character is an appearance in this awareness, just like these hands are an appearance. I can see these hands moving in front of me. I also see Stephen the character. It's not who I am. I am the witnessing presence. I am the consciousness, the awareness. So that's the other side of the coin, it's seeing who I am. If I am not this separate ego character then what am I, who am I?

Darren: I can see that if one can adopt that, then really one cannot condemn anybody.

Stephen: Not personally, no.

Darren: Yes.

Stephen: But Charles Manson is a dangerous man, and we want to separate him from society. But we don't blame him personally and say, how can you kill others? How can you behave like that? We know his behavior is just happening. It would be like asking a Pit Bull...

Darren: Why do you bite?

Stephen: Yes, why are you biting people? It's happening. It's like asking a cat, why do you meow?

Darren: Okay, so if one was to get that, are you saying that would be the end of suffering?

Stephen: If you notice in your own experience, what's happening when psychological suffering is happening? There's a story playing that revolves around 'me', this Darren character. What if it's seen that this Darren character is just an image, it's just a story? So it's seen that any time there's psychological suffering happening, there's a story playing in the head, an upsetting story that creates an uncomfortable energy in the body—and we call that experience psychological suffering. So we see it's just a story playing about this Darren character, and it's just an image.

There is no separate, controlling entity called Darren. There is just consciousness watching the show. What I am is this consciousness. So now I know myself as I am—as consciousness—this I am-ness which is right now. It's not I was, or I will be—it's I am! This consciousness is, and this is what I am. And you notice in your own experience that at any given point in time this consciousness is here. It's always here, and it's always now. So you know this is what I am.

Everything else about Darren changes his body and mind are always changing. His thoughts are changing. His feelings are changing. His sensations are changing. Everything is changing, but what always remains the same is this consciousness that I am. So now I know myself as I am. I am the way, the truth and the life. I am That. I AM THAT I AM. It seems to me that this is what the ancient traditions are pointing to—this I Am. This consciousness that is. And we are already That. So this is not an attainment. It's a recognition, a realization of what I am. And it's a recognition of what I am not. The belief in what I am not, this separate character called Darren, or Walter, or Stephen—this image is at the root of all psychological suffering. The separate character is nothing more than a concept, an image, a story. So all psychological suffering is based on imagination.

Darren: Let me ask you this—let's put this to the test and see where the rubber hits the road. If I'm clear that who I am is this witness to all that's happening to the body/mind, and this body/mind's wife cheats on him, the stock market crashes and I get wiped out, my children are kidnapped—all bad things happen. Even if I step out and see that I'm only a witness to all of this happening, there is still suffering. Wouldn't there be suffering—losing your children, your wife, your money?

Stephen: It seems to me, and you notice this in your own experience that the body/mind organism lives in the world of opposites. It lives in the world of pleasure and pain, happiness and sadness, laughter and tears. That continues on, but there's no one doing that. There's a new perspective on the pleasure and the pain. There's a new perspective on the laughing and the crying. There's a new perspective on everything that happens to the body/mind organism—there's a new perspective.

Everything that happens—the pleasure and the pain, the happiness and the sadness, the laughter and the tears, the success and the failure, continue happening as they've always been happening, but there's a new perspective on it all. It's all witnessed. So pleasure and pain continue to happen. Happiness and sadness—all of that continues to happen, but it's witnessed. I am not that, I am the witness of that.

Walter: Let me ask a clarifying question. Darren is sitting here and we just learned that the stock market crashed and he's wiped out. He just heard you say that what he really is, is not the body/mind he's the awareness of it. The question is, is he going to suffer?

Darren: I am going to suffer.

Walter: Right. I quite agree. You are going to suffer.

Stephen: Who is going to suffer?

Walter: He is, Darren, the guy in the blue shirt. He's just been wiped out.

Stephen: What are you in essence? Are you Darren in essence?

Darren: The ego you mean?

Stephen: Yes, or are you the witness of Darren and his story? This gets to the root of it. This is seeing what I am in essence.

Darren: I can see that I am both. I can see that I can be the witness, and at the same time I am this body/mind organism.

Stephen: Yes, you are both. But what are you in essence? What is the essence of you. What is it about you that doesn't change? The body/mind organism is always changing.

Darren: The awareness doesn't change.

Stephen: The stock market goes up, you're happy. The stock market goes down, you're sad. What is it about you that was never happy, or sad? What is it about you that witnesses the happiness and the sadness?

Darren: Who I am.

Stephen: The awareness is what I am.

Darren: Right, okay.

Stephen: So that's the new perspective. If there's a belief that I am this Darren character in essence—you are Darren, but it's not your essence.

Darren: I see what you're saying. I wouldn't be as attached. If I think that all that I am is this body/mind, then when the market crashes it's much more severe than if I see that who I am in essence is not his body/mind. And the loss to this body/mind is not as significant as it would be if all I was is this body/mind.

Walter: May I suggest that until you're enlightened, hearing him say you're not the body/mind is not going to affect your suffering if the stock market wipes you out. Until you are enlightened. To hear him intellectually say that won't help.

Stephen: Seeing this in your own direct experience is the practical matter. We can talk about enlightenment as a concept. There is a concept of enlightenment. I'd like to share the illustration of the pendulum.

Darren: The Wayne Liquorman example?

Stephen: Yes. A pendulum swings from the fulcrum at the center. If you believe you are the ego, it's like living at the bottom of the pendulum, and you experience the full effects of swinging from happiness to sadness, happiness to sadness. When you know yourself as consciousness, it's like living up here at the fulcrum and you watch the swings of happiness and sadness. You are up here at the fulcrum, and when the stock market crashes, Darren is sad, the body/mind organism is sad, of course it's sad—you just got wiped out! But you know I am the witnessing presence, and I'm watching the sadness just like you're watching a movie on television—that's the difference.

If you're watching a movie on television and you believe you are the character in the movie, you're absolutely convinced, there's not even a question of doubt, you are the character in the movie and you're being attacked, then of course you're going to suffer along with the character. As soon as it's pointed out that you are not the character in the movie, you're watching the character in the movie. Now you're watching the movie as a witnessing presence of the movie. So there may be happiness and sadness, and all the human emotions.

Darren: But not as intense.

Stephen: They're witnessed. You're living at the fulcrum up here. So we can look into this concept of enlightenment and ask, what is it? And we can define it however we want to define it. It seems to me that what I am in essence is this consciousness. I'm not separate from God. There is no separation. I am not separate from awareness, consciousness.

Darren: But I don't get that. Even if I get that who I am in essence is this witnessing awareness, I don't know, or there's no way to know that this witnessing presence is the same witnessing presence looking through your eyes.

Stephen: If someone says prove to me that we are not separate, I say prove that we are separate. Let's consider this illustration. We can say there's one body here (referring to the speaker's body), there's one body of awareness with different points of consciousness. If I strike my left hand with a hammer, the left hand will hurt, but not the right hand. So there is one body of awareness here with different points of consciousness. If I strike my knee with a hammer, the knee hurts. There's a point of consciousness at the knee. There is one body of awareness, with different points of consciousness. So we can say in this room there are three people who are different points of consciousness of the One Universal body of Awareness.

Darren: Yeah, but I think one, perhaps, needs to have this enlightenment experience to get that it's the same awareness.

Stephen: When does the appearance of separation happen? There is no separation, there's not even the idea of separation until the first thought arises. When there's no thought, there's no separation. In your own experience when you wake up in the morning, prior to the first thought, the thought, 'I' have to get up for work, 'I' have to get up for breakfast, 'I'... Prior to that first thought...

Darren: There is no separation.

Stephen: There's just absolute awareness, there's no separate entity at all. As soon as the I-thought arises and the image of Stephen, Darren, or Walter, that is the birth of the appearance of separation. In your own experience just before you wake up in the morning, and you can notice this yourself, you'll notice the first thought is 'I' and then whatever follows. 'I' sense the sunlight through the window, 'I' hear the alarm clock. Or 'I'...

Darren: So what you're saying is prior to...

Stephen: Prior to thought.

Darren: It's all one.

Stephen: There's no separation prior to thought. So then the next question is does thought actually divide the universe, and separate me from you, or does it just appear so? So if we see there is no separation, separation is only a thought. The birth of the appearance of separation is this first thought, this I-thought, this I-thought and I-image, this me.

So we notice that in our own experience when we wake up in the morning. When you wake up in the morning you'll notice the thoughts 'I' hear the alarm clock. What witnessed that first thought? What was there that witnessed it? It's absolute awareness. So absolute awareness wakes up into relative consciousness with the first thought, 'I', I am. I am is a pointer to this relative consciousness that I am. There are no problems as I am. It's when I am Walter and his story, I am Darren and his story, I am Stephen and his story—that is the birth of the potential for psychological suffering—this I am thought.

So we look and ask is this thought 'I am' truly separating all of creation into separate little I ams, separate little entities, or does it just appear so? And we notice in our own experience when we wake up in the morning this I-thought arises. What is there that witnesses this I thought? That's what I am in essence, this witnessing presence, this awareness—this is what I am.

Darren: Okay, so let me ask you this—once you get really clear that who you are is not this body/mind called Stephen, but you are the witnessing presence, and that who you really are is not separate from anyone or anything else, if someone comes along and says I'm going to take your computer and I'm going to take your girlfriend, then you could say, well, fine. What would stop you from doing that?

Walter: Doing what?

Darren: What would stop you from saying, you can have my computer, my girlfriend, my home, everything. If who you are is everybody else, there's no distinction. If who you are is the witnessing awareness.

Walter: Interesting question.

Darren: What would stop you from saying, no, you cannot take my money or my property?

Stephen: Maybe that happens or maybe it doesn't happen.

Darren: You mean in some cases some would say, okay, you can have it all?

Stephen: We can consider the behavior of different characters throughout history who have expressed this. Some appear to be completely detached from the body/mind organism and they'd sit and do absolutely nothing. People had to come and feed them.

Darren: Like Ramana.

Walter: Want me to give you Ramesh's answer to that? First of all, I'll tell you the answer he gave to the man who asked, if I have no control over my actions, what's to stop me from going out and killing someone on the street? Ramesh's answer was, you couldn't possibly do that. But Ramesh says, to answer your question, you don't control your thoughts, you don't generate your thoughts. Your thoughts come to you from consciousness, and you react to those thoughts according to your genes and your conditioning. That's why, he says you have no control over your actions.

Darren: Even after you see that who you are is this witnessing presence?

Walter: Yes.

Darren: Your body/mind organism is still responding to thoughts.

Walter: Thoughts that come from consciousness, and you respond according to your genes and your conditioning.

Darren: Which is what Stephen is saying. In some instances some would say, fine, you can take my property. And in other instances, one might say, no. Okay, I see what you're saying.

Stephen: So when you ask how will you respond to specific hypothetical situations, if the stock market crashes, or someone takes your wife—there's a new perspective on those events. The perspective is that I am not reacting to the stock market crash, I'm not reacting to someone taking my wife, I'm the witnessing presence that's watching this conditioned body/mind respond to those events.

Now the behavior may change in this body/mind organism. It may change—you may be more loving and kind, or maybe you won't be. There's no way to know how the Mysterious Source of all existence will express itself. It has always been expressing itself. It's not as though Darren has been expressing himself for the past forty years, and now Consciousness or God or Intelligence Energy will on this day begin expressing itself. It's realized that all there is, is this consciousness expressing itself. So whatever happens, happens.

There may be changes in your behavior or maybe not. But there's a new perspective—as illustrated with the pendulum example. If I am Stephen, then I'm the one who's responsible for whether I'm happy or sad, or if I'm successful or I fail. So I'm living at the bottom of the pendulum. Sometimes I'll get things right, and sometimes I don't get it right. So I'm always in flux.

Darren: So the closer you get to being more and more convinced that who you are...

Stephen: Just see it now! There's no degree of convincing. There's a recognition that you can't possibly be a separate entity—it's just not possible. Everything is happening. It can be debated whether there's free will or destiny. But what can't be debated is that this consciousness is, I am. So you know yourself as this consciousness, this witnessing presence that's watching the show. Then whatever happens in the show is witnessed. But there's no sense that I'm doing anything. The source of the words that are coming out of this mouth right now is an absolute mystery. There's no way to know where anything comes from. So we call it the Mysterious Source because it's all a mystery. What makes the cat meow?

Darren: Walter, you buy that, right?

Walter: To get back to Darren's question, if the stock market crashes, is he going to do anything?

Stephen: Will he suffer, or what do you mean?

Walter: Will he do anything about it.

Stephen: As you've said, whatever this body/mind organism is conditioned to do it will do. But there's a new perspective on it. If there's a belief that I am Darren, I am in control, I'm a separate entity then there's a different experience—there are big swings in your experience. But knowing yourself as this consciousness, there's a recognition that I'm not doing any of that.

So if the stock market crashes and Darren responds with sadness and despair—that's witnessed. Oh, look at the sadness and despair. Or if the response is a detached feeling, that's witnessed, oh, look at the detached feeling. The stock market crashed and yet the body/mind organism is detached, isn't that amazing! There's a witnessing of this body/mind organism. There's no sense that I'm in control. There's no Stephen here making these finger nails grow. There's no Stephen here making these words come out. Where are these words coming from? If you punch me, I have no idea what will happen—I may punch back or I may run—I don't know. But it's not me doing it, there's no separate entity doing anything.

Darren: So when you became clear about that, how did that affect your life

Stephen: There was a belief in this Stephen character who existed as a separate, controlling entity. So there were big swings in trying to take control of my life, going to retreats and seminars, going to see teachers, trying to become enlightened because I wanted to be free of psychological suffering.

So it's seen that this Stephen character is just a story that's playing! There is no separate entity called Stephen, it's just an image. What I am is this consciousness. So the spiritual seeking comes to an end, there's no one here doing anything, there's just a story.

And the suffering is the trying to become enlightened, that is the very suffering I wanted to be free of. Because I'm not good enough, Stephen, this ego, I'm not good enough so I have to become enlightened. So the struggling with what is, the struggling with life—at the root of the suffering is the sense that I'm in control, and I can exercise control if I go to enough teachers, if I meditate enough, if I read enough books—I personally will become enlightened. That's seen to be false. There is no one to become enlightened. There's just consciousness. I am this consciousness watching Stephen trying to become enlightened. It's seen to be a joke! It's a joke! There's no one to become enlightened, and there was no one ever suffering. It was all a story. All that exists is consciousness, this witnessing presence watching the whole show. I am the witnessing presence. So the psychological suffering falls away. The spiritual seeking falls away. There's no one to do anything. There's this witnessing presence watching it all. So for me there was a sense of relief.

Darren: Was it like a euphoric reaction?

Stephen: No. Everyone is different.

Darren: Almost like a non-event. So, for example, if you had lost all your money in the stock market two years ago, and if you lose everything today—what is different about your experience now?

Stephen: There's no way to know. But the difference now is that I just watch what happens. I am the witnessing presence of whatever happens. I may be upset, or I may be detached, and there's a witnessing of whatever happens. Oh, look, there's a feeling of detachment. I lost everything I own, and there is absolutely no response, wow! Or I may be dejected and sad. And I'll notice the sadness.

There's no sense that I shouldn't be sad, I should be detached. I need to meditate more. If I was enlightened I wouldn't be upset. There are no I shoulds or I shouldn'ts. There's no one here doing anything. Everything is just happening. So I am the witnessing presence of whatever is happening. There's no more fighting with what is, there's no one here doing anything. There was never a separate entity here that ever did anything. There was just a belief that there was a separate entity here. That belief in a separate ego, a separate me, is at the root of all psychological suffering. When there's no one here doing anything, there's just a witnessing of whatever happens. It's the same as watching a movie on television. There's a witnessing of this body/mind character called Stephen.

Darren: So you might be sad and just be watching that.

Stephen: There is sadness, and there's no sense that I shouldn't be sad, I need to meditate more. If I was enlightened I would always be happy—that's absurd! There is no one here who created the sadness. There's no one here who creates the happiness—it just happens, and it's witnessed.

Walter: That's a very good point you're making, and you're presenting it very well—the concept of being a witnessing presence. It's very good.

Stephen: If you look in your own experience you'll notice that this is the only thing you know with absolute certainty—that you are consciousness. Everything else can be debated—the concepts of free will or destiny. You can believe that there is free will or there isn't. But what can't be debated is that this witnessing presence is. It always is. It's just witnessing and there's always been this witnessing presence from the time you were a little child until right now. It's always now—now, now, now. So this is what I am. I am the eternal witnessing presence. I am eternal life. That's what I am.

Darren: Well, in my own experience, I cannot go beyond the time I became of aware of it. Before I was born I don't know if this awareness was there. I cannot speak about it. I have no sense of it.

Stephen: So we look and ask when does the sense of being separate happen? It didn't happen at one point in time. It happens every morning when you wake up, it happens throughout your day. The I-thought and image arises and falls. It arises in the morning with your story. And as you're going about your day, taking care of your business, you become so involved in your work or whatever you're doing, that I-sense falls away.

Let's say you're a carpenter and you're so involved in sanding a piece of wood, there's no I. So that sense of I falls away, but what's always there? The consciousness, the witnessing presence is always there just watching. There's no suffering as the witnessing presence. And then someone shouts, Darren, get over here! And then this I image comes back in, and with it the potential for psychological suffering. Knowing yourself as this witnessing presence there's a new perspective.

Darren: So somebody could harm me, and I could respond by saying, that's not him harming me. He's just driven by consciousness.

Stephen: There is no separate entity.

Darren: No separate will or ego that can control matters.

Stephen: There is no separate entity in the universe at all. There's one universe. There's no way you could possibly separate yourself. Could you extract yourself from the rest of creation? Is that possible? And then exercise control—it's just not possible.

Darren: It's easy to fall for the belief in being a separate entity.

Stephen: And that is the human experience. It's the fall from grace. It's the knowledge of good and evil, which is the functioning of the intellect.

Darren: It's so easy to fall for that and feel that, oh, yeah, I can control my experience.

Stephen: Yes, and that's why there is psychological suffering.

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This Dialogue is from the book:
Dogs, Cats & Dreams of Spiritual Awakening

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